This argument is laughable in so many ways. People say we are a cult and that we worship Joseph Smith instead of Jesus Christ. I won’t even attempt to address the cult conversation because I find the argument completely unimpressive. However, I find it interesting that those who don’t even have Christ’s name in their church sit back and call us everything but Christians. I have e-mailed the Southern Evangelicals to obtain their definition of Christian. I hope to hear back from them soon. I contacted them since they are the most outspoken about this issue.
I guess the first step is to find out people mean by defining someone as Christian. I looked up the word Christian in many dictionaries and almost all of the definitions came back like this one:
- One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
- One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
Based on these definitions, how can anyone conceivably say that members of the LDS church are not Christians?
The 1st Article of Faith says, “We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”
Can anyone be any clearer than that in their beliefs? It is astounding that other churches have the belief that we aren’t Christian. Everything we do is in the name of Christ. Christ even went so far to tell Joseph Smith what the name of the church should be. Joseph was obviously confused by all the different names of the churches of his time and wanted to know what to call it. Christ responded in D&C 115:4, “For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
After reading many articles and websites, it is crystal clear that many people in the world do not understand the teachings of the church. But what is more frustrating is that people lie about our beliefs or don’t bother to ask someone in the church about our teachings. Reporters will go to those who are not members to get their opinions about our teachings but fail to ask us. Why is that?
It is sad and tremendously disappointing that members of the church would even have to defend ourselves to be included as a Christian. It’s an argument that will not be won because of the subversive acts of Satan and his followers. Lucifer is working hard to thwart the work of righteousness and will stop at nothing to accomplish his objectives. We just need to be confident in our beliefs and correct people in appropriate ways and means. I don’t believe that this is an issue to blow out of perspective.
33 comments:
Do you believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man?
Jim,
Could you clarify what you mean by fully God and fully man?
I want to make sure I have the correct context of what you are asking before I answer your question.
Scott
That Jesus of Nazareth is the God of the universe... the second person of the Trinity... One God, three Persons... the belief of Christians throughout the history of the church.
Jim,
We believe in God, in Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. They are three distinct personages with God and Jesus Christ having bodies of flesh and bone. The Holy Ghost does not have a body so he may dwell in us.
God and Jesus Christ created this earth for us to dwell on. They also created man in their own likeness.
We do believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one in purpose but not the same person.
Jesus came to do the will of His father, who is our Heavenly Father or God.
The Holy Ghost testifies to us of things that are true.
See Matthew 4:16-17 for one instance where God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all identified individually.
People who believe that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all in one have an incorrect belief of the Godhead.
Thanks for the clear answers.
The Trinitarian view may or may not be true... that aside... it is the Christian view. To not have this view is to deny one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.
Jim,
I appreciate your input. Can you show me in scripture where the Trinitarian view is documented? If not, the only question I have is why is that your belief or anyone else who claims to be Christian?
That's what I'm trying to help you understand. That belief is erroneous and you too, may understand if you choose to. I'd be happy to help or get you more information.
Scott
I've heard a pretty good analogy that makes a little sense out of this issue. It goes kind of like this:
If you take a jar of Miracle Whip and empty out its contents, then replace it with a similar looking substance, say wallpaper paste, what do you have? A jar labeled Miracle Whip that even looks like Miracle Whip. But if you take a taste, you'll soon discover that it isn't Miracle Whip at all, but merely a clever forgery.
That's what the Jesus of the Mormon Church is: a clever forgery. Joseph Smith distorted and re-defined the nature of God and Christ as they are understood by traditional Christianity. Or in other words, he emptied out their contents and filled them with something else entirely.
That's why Christians are so quick to point out that Mormons aren't Christian.
Even the current President of the church, Gordon Hinkley admitted to believing in a Christ who is different from traditional Christianity:
The LDS Church News reported: "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times'" (June 20, 1998, http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory_church?dn98&9806210091).
This website offers some insight as to the differences of the Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of traditional Christianity:
http://www.watchman.org/lds/gbhjesus.htm
I hope you both find this helpful.
Scott,
First, there are numerous OT passages that "hint" at the Trinitarian belief. Gen. 1:26: "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." Also in Gen. 3:22, 11:7 and Isa. 6:8. Compare the Gen. 1:26 passage with the very next verse (27), which says "So God (singular) created man in his (singular) own image." That seems like a pretty strong argument for multiple persons in One God.
I was going to do a second, but I won't bombard you with passages. We can go one at a time.
For God's Glory,
Jim
Al,
That is a very interesting analogy. I had not heard that one before though I have heard similar analogies.
I agree with Pres. Hinckley's comments fully. The dictionary definition of Christianity and the belief held by churches are two different things. I don't subscribe to the belief held by all the churches who say they are Christian. I believe they are Christian in the fact they believe in Christ. That's it.
Are Mormons non-Christian's because they don't believe the same way those other churches do? I say no.
You know what the church believes even with the recent events that have happened in your life. I'm sorry you have taken the path that you have over the past year, but that's up to you. I've had occasion to be out and help deliver those letters to individuals and it is a sad day for all. I will tell you that your bishop only has your best interests at heart and has no ill will towards you. He will always be there for you.
Jim,
Again, I appreciate your insights and references. As you say, they "hint" at something. They aren't conclusive and are in disagreement with the other scriptures that let us know of the 3 distinct personages.
I think a lot of people get confused with meanings. All 3 have one purpose which in effect makes them one. But it does not make them one person. That belief stemmed from the Nicene Creed which are man's interpretations.
Would you want to know for a surety that they are 3 distinct personages if you could? If you could read and study that would you?
Best wishes,
Scott
Scott,
That was just my first passage, hence, one of the weakest leading up to stronger points.
Having said that, you didn't really address the passage... just kind of brushed it off. How do you explain the plural in one verse and the singular in the next? Is it just an error?
I am willing to take my doctrine and be convinced from the Scriptures (ie. the Bible). I hope you are too.
Scott,
Maybe it's a bit of a stretch to say that Mormons are non-Christians. Would calling them non-traditional-Christians be more PC?
You're right, they believe in their version of Him, but so do other non-traditional religious sects, such as Jehova's Witnesses.
So, as a Mormon who doesn't recognize the validity of any other religious beliefs, do you consider Jehova's Witnesses "Christians"? Or Protestants? Or Catholics? Or whoever?
Doesn't it all just boil down to "my God is bigger (or more true) than your God?"
Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?
Oh wait, Joseph Smith did, when he claimed he was told that all other sects were an "abomination", right?
You must have read my blog to gain some insight as to where I was coming from before responding to my comments. I appreciate that.
Believe me, you don't need to be sorry for my decisions to leave the church. I'm very glad to be out.
Good luck with your ongoing debate with Jim. I've contributed my two cents worth.
Jim,
In verse 26 God, Heavenly Father, is speaking to Jesus when He says "Let us make man in our image." And it was done. Verse 27 is just the narrative saying God did create man in His own image. It's reference isn't one of exclusion of Christ but just the fact that God created man. I don't find any reason to believe this infers anything else.
Same in Ch 3 verse 22...
Al,
It is about what is true and what isn't. It is about right and wrong. It is about obedience to the laws and commandments of God.
All I'm saying in my post is that Mormons believe in Jesus Christ. It doesn't have to be the same definition of other churches and it's not even the reality of being called Christian. It's just so interesting that all of these other churches dismiss Mormons as a cult because of the difference of interpretation.
I don't know what all of the other churches believe fully. So I can't make informed comments. If someone believes in Jesus Christ, I would say they are Christian.
But doesn't the First Vision take away all the doubt of who Jesus and God are? Why do all of the people who believe the Bible have so many different interpretations of it? There is only one God and one way to be able to live with Him again. You know all this so I won't go any further in explanations.
This is what life is all about. Nothing more, nothing less. You shouted for joy at the prospect of coming to earth. I don't remember that but I sure do understand the feelings I have about it.
Your two cents have been taken. I wish you well in your endeavors. Mine was just the opposite; I married someone who was a Methodist and she, on her own, investigated the church and wanted to be baptized. It surprised me when she said it because she hadn't talked about it before. She's glad she did it and so am I.
Peace.
Scott
Scott,
Is the Mormon belief that the Father and Son created the earth?
You said, "If someone believes in Jesus Christ, I would say they are Christian."
That is a very, very broad definition of a Christian. It would include just about everyone in the world, excluding only a small minority of atheists... and even of them there are probably some who believe that Jesus existed and that he was a sort of savior.
Muslims believe in Jesus. Are we going to call them Christians. If "yes," then there's no point arguing this issue. If "no," then you agree that there is a distinguishing line between Christians and non-Christians. You would just disagree with me about where to place the line.
Jim,
We believe that Jesus created the earth and all things on it by priesthood authority and under the direction of Heavenly Father.
I think our definitions of being a Christian are completely different from each other.
How do you define being a Christian? What makes up your mind on where you place the line? Maybe if I understood that a little more my comments could be more direct.
The dictionary definition of being a Christian is someone believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. If someone does this, then yes, I say they can call themselves Christian. Is there a line to be drawn outside of that definition?
I know many churches claim being a Christian is the end all be all. I'm not sure that claim is the end of the line.
We believe there is much more than just a professed 'believing' in Christ and one is saved. That's a whole other blog.
However, my point in the whole blog is, Mormons believe in Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the head of this church and runs it through revelation to the prophet Gordon B. Hinckley. Just as He did in olden times.
For people to say that Mormons aren't Christian just because we have a different belief in the 'Trinity', well I find that argument baseless. People are creating their own definition of Christianity to say that "you are Christian if you ONLY believe like we do. Anything else is not a Christian."
I find that argument extremely hypocritical and baseless since anyone can create a definition to serve their own purposes and exclude anyone else.
I'm finding that people in the press who are writing about this are ignorant to the teachings of our church and should do more homework before publishing things that are false or just outright lies.
Best.
Jim,
Here is a link to an interesting article I thought you might enjoy.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070122&s=grafton012207
Scott
Jim,
I think in your comments you are making my point about the whole blog. There is a group of people who are claiming all rights to being called a Christian, and excluding those who don't have their same beliefs.
The two characteristic beliefs you are taking about were created by man, not Jesus. The Nicene Creed gave 'most' Christians their definition of Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost. It didn't come from scripture. It came from man's interpretations.
You state LDS beliefs are new and recent. I'm telling you that our beliefs are from the beginning of time. They aren't new. They are the teachings of Christ since the world was formed and before and will be for eternity.
I'm not sure I fully understand you last paragraph because I don't fully understand the varied beliefs of other Christians. However, I will try to explain what you are referencing.
To answer in short, He is both. Jesus has existed from the beginning. He is as eternal as God and you and me. Our existence has always been eternal. You and I existed before the world was created in what is called the pre-existence. See Job 38:1-7 and Jer. 1:5.
Christ was ordained to be our Savior from the beginning. He came here to die for our sins which overcomes our spiritual death and to be resurrected which overcomes our physical death. That's how Christ is our Savior.
Why did Christ say, If ye love me keep my commandments? What are the purposes to obeying them if not to become like Him? How do you become like someone if you don't do what they do? It's impossible, right?
Christ commanded us "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." How does one become perfect? Following Christ's commandments. I wish I was closer to that than what I am but all men fall short and that is where the grace of Christ will come in to play.
The doctrine of the gospel isn't as complicated as many churches want to make it. Because of the experience of Joseph Smith, we know the true identities of Jesus and God. He saw both of them and spoke with them. He had an experience that we all would love to have!
And because of that experience and the events that followed, the true gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to this earth. One does not have to wonder about the many aspects of the Godhead (Trinity), baptism, priesthood authority, pre-existence, mortal life as a probationary period, and the afterlife. All of these questions have answers. They can all be found in the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Jim, these are not my words but the words of Christ himself. They can be found in scriptures which help clarify the confusion of missing parts or mistranslated parts of the Bible.
I wish I could speak face to face with you and read scriptures together. That would be much easier than this blog format!
I hope that some of your questions or comments have been answered and I haven't confused you more.
Best.
Scott
Jim,
I do disagree with you and don't know where you come up with some of the stuff you do. You can't get preachy with me so don't worry about it.
But you lump so much stuff together and it doesn't make any sense and you didn't answer most of my questions. That seems to be the case with most people who take your stance about 'grace' alone and being saved. I sure when we say the word saved we have 2 different meanings.
I'd still love to hear your answers to the following, "Why did Christ say, If ye love me keep my commandments? What are the purposes to obeying them if not to become like Him? How do you become like someone if you don't do what they do? It's impossible, right?
Christ commanded us "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." How does one become perfect?"
It seems that you have spent a lot of time trying to find out what you are looking for about the Mormons. But have you ever spoken with the missionaries? Have you ever read the Book of Mormon and prayed to know if it is true? Have you ever gone to a Mormon church?
We do have a fundamental disagreement about the gospel and that is the beauty of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. One doesn't have to wonder what the gospel is. One doesn't have to be confused by ministers who confuse the doctrines of men with scripture. One can be lead by a prophet just like Moses, Noah, Abraham, etc.
Jim, what are you afraid of? Why the adamant positions of the Bible is all their is when the Bible tells you otherwise?
As I said before, your comments support my thoughts that other religions think of themselves as Christian in a limited view and only want to include those be believe as they. I'm not sure where you go to church or if you do, but if you do what is the name of it?
I wish you luck in your endeavors and hope you find what you are seeking. As for me and my family, we will continue to serve and worship the Lord as we currently do in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Through it we hope to gain salvation and opportunity to live with God and Jesus Christ again.
Scott
Ted,
Jump in wherever you want to contribute. I'd love to read your thoughts.
Scott
Why did Christ say, If ye love me you will keep my commandments?
To encourage his disciples in obeying him. If one's love for Jesus is true, it will bring forth fruit.
What are the purposes to obeying them if not to become like Him?
For the joy of serving the Master. Christians do become like Jesus, not by strenuous effort, but by grace. Jesus is qualitatively different from us. Just acting like him doesn't make us like him any more than acting like a monkey makes us one.
How do you become like someone if you don't do what they do? It's impossible, right?
What is impossible is becoming like Jesus by one's own effort. Change comes from the inside out and from God.
What is the meaning of Rom. 3:10-19 and 28? Is it not to say that we cannot be justified by our own works? From the passages from Joseph Smith I posted last time, it does not appear that boasting was excluded in his life as it in Paul.
What do Mormons make of Jesus' claims to deity? Esp. in John 8:52-59 and John 5:17-18. If he was not claiming to be God, then why didn't he correct their "misunderstanding?" The Jews didn't want to kill him just because he was upsetting their laws or even because he said he was God's Son, but because he was "making himself equal with God."
Jim,
Romans is talking about the law of Moses and how man is not justified by it.
I feel you have some strong feelings towards Joseph Smith and you don't think highly of him. I can assure you that he was a man of God, a very humble servant doing the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ through the direction of Christ himself.
Change does come from the inside out and obedience to His commandments makes us like Him. If you have children, and they do what you do, doesn't that make them like you? Don't you want to set a good example for them to follow? Well, that is exactly what Jesus did. He set the example, doing the will of the Father as He saw His Father do it (John 5:19), and then commanded us to do likewise so we would be perfect as our Father in heaven is.
You can't have it both ways. Either doing good means something or it doesn't. Obedience to the commandments means something or it doesn't. Being baptized by one having priesthood authority means something or it doesn't. How do you come unto Christ if you don't do His will?
The verses you reference in John are perfect examples of Christ testifying about himself and His relationship with Heavenly Father. They are separate beings and that's what Christ is testifying about. Is he speaking in the 3rd person? I testify that He is not and he is letting those to whom He is speaking know that He is here to do the will of the Father, not His own.
That's what makes Christ our Savior, because he came to ransom us from our sins. He is a God because He is the Father's literal Only Begotten Son in the flesh. He is also a God because he fulfilled the will of Heavenly Father and all that He was commanded to do. "It is finished", "Remove the cup from me, but not my will, but thy will be done." These are testaments that Christ was speaking to His Father, not himself and that Christ's mission on earth was accomplished.
Jim, you ask what do Mormons make of Jesus' claim to deity? Hopefully I've answered that question throughout the whole blog, at least I think I have. If not, then please let me know and I'll try again.
Scott
ps, Ted, where are you???? :)
"Well, that is exactly what Jesus did. He set the example, doing the will of the Father as He saw His Father do it (John 5:19), and then commanded us to do likewise so we would be perfect as our Father in heaven is."
He did give us an example, yes. But he is qualitatively different than us. He is the one true God. He lived a perfect life. We cannot. I see in myself a war between my fleshly mind and my spiritual mind. The point of the Romans passage is to tell us that no person can be justified by works. That means no matter how hard I try to "be good" or be perfect as the Father is... I will fail. Surely you see this in your own life too?
"Obedience to the commandments means something or it doesn't."
It does, but we cannot be justified by our works. We cannot earn salvation according to Scripture.
"Being baptized by one having priesthood authority means something or it doesn't. "
It doesn't. Where's your Biblical reference for that?
"How do you come unto Christ if you don't do His will?"
The Father draws people to himself in regeneration. He changes a person's heart... he replaces a person's heart of stone with a heart of flesh so he can see and rejoice in the beauty of Jesus. Coming to Jesus is not about becoming perfect. We can never be perfect in this age, but we can be declared righteous in Christ.
No mere man could have paid for the sins of sinners. If there was a perfect man, he could pay for the sins of another man... but not for millions of men.
That's why Jesus, fully God and fully man came to earth... to die as a substitute... taking the punishment for sinners. Anyone who repents and trusts in him will not be ashamed at the last day.
"you ask what do Mormons make of Jesus' claim to deity? Hopefully I've answered that question throughout the whole blog, at least I think I have. If not, then please let me know and I'll try again."
Not just, What do you believe about his claims to deity, but what do you say about those specific passages where he claims deity and everyone knows it (John 8:52-59 and John 5:17-18).
Also, I'd like your thoughts on the following ideas.
1)God is omniscient... knowing the thoughts of men, past, present, and future.
There is evidence that Jesus is also omniscient: He knew where Nathaniel was (Jn1:48), He knew the thoughts of the Pharisees (Mt12:25, Lk5:22, Lk6:8), and he knew the history of the Samaritan woman (Jn4:16-29).
2)God is worshiped. Only God can rightly be worshiped. Whenever a man or angel is being worshiped he was immediately rebuked.
Jesus worshiped without rebuke by the wise men (Mt2:11), by the leper (Mt8:2), by a ruler (Mt9:18), and by angels (Heb1:6). At no time did Jesus rebuke people who were worshiping him. He accepted it as right.
3)God forgives sin. Only God can forgive sin (Mk2:7).
Jesus forgave sin (Mk2:5, Lk7:48).
4)God creates. Only God can truly create... take nothing and make something.
Jesus created the world (Col1:16, Jn1:3).
5)God saves (Ps3:8).
Jesus saves (Mt18:11, Lk9:56, Jn3:17, Jn12:47)
Finally, (sorry if I've exhausted you with this book of a comment) what are your thoughts on the relationship between Isaiah 48:12 and Rev. 1:17. Is not the first describing the Father and the second describing Jesus? Yet they both call themselves the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last.
Are all these just interesting coincidences or evidences that Jesus is the one true God without beginning or end? Friend, I hope you will see that it is the second. Jesus Christ is the eternal and everlasting God.
point #2 should be "Jesus WAS worshiped..."
First off, I want to re-clarify some distinctions in terminology so you know the meaning in my comments in hopes of avoiding miscommunication…
God = Heavenly Father, Father in heaven, Jesus’ literal earthly father
Jesus = Christ, The Only Begotten Son
Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit, Spirit of God
Each of these is a distinct personage and entity and comprises the Godhead.
----
Resurrection/Immortality = body and spirit reunited in its perfect form through the grace alone without obedience to any laws or commandments. (This can be called a form of salvation but that is NOT my intent here)
Salvation = In its simplest form, this is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ with our resurrected bodies for eternity.
You stated that obeying the commandments does mean something but you can not be justified by your works. Later you stated that “anyone who repents and trusts in him will not be ashamed at the last day.”
Why would repentance be a part of your belief if we are all saved by grace? Repentance infers that you did something wrong and need to rectify what you did. If you are saved by only declaring a belief in Jesus and only through that, then repentance shouldn’t mean anything to you, nor keeping any commandments.
Jesus ordained His 12 Apostles and gave them priesthood authority. He commanded the Apostles to, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matthew 28:19-20.
Again, this is scripture detailing 3 distinct individuals and then instructions to follow all of the commandments. If following the commandments meant nothing to the gospel of Jesus Christ, then why did Jesus preach it so much? Because being obedient does mean something and will have an impact at judgment day.
A good example of obeying all of the commandments is, Luke 1:5-6, “THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”
“Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:13-17)
Again, Jesus showed the way by being baptized to fulfil ALL righteousness. And after Jesus was baptized in the flesh, the Spirit of God was present and Heavenly Father spoke from heaven declaring that Jesus did right. How does Jesus, in the flesh, come down as a dove and then speak as if He were in Heaven and refer to Himself as His beloved Son in whom He is pleased? Can you imagine saying this about yourself? The concept that the Godhead is 3 in 1 does NOT go with any scripture. It was contrived of men in the early days of so-called Christianity and the Nicene Creed.
Now, on to your questions:
1. God and Jesus Christ are both omniscient.
2. God and Jesus Christ are worshiped. We pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior as commanded.
3. God and Jesus Christ forgive us. God has given Jesus Christ as our Savior all power to judge us of our sins. This will come at the judgment day when we stand before the bar of Christ and give an accounting of our stewardship on earth.
4. Jesus did create the world and all things in it, above it, under it, EVERYTHING. And He did so through the power of the priesthood and under the direction of Heavenly Father.
5. Jesus did save us from our sins. There are so many scriptures that detail this I feel it is mute to mention all of them in addition to those you mentioned. Since we all sin and become unclean, we can not be in the presence of Heavenly Father. A Savior was needed to pay the price of our sins and allow us to become clean again. Jesus, in the council in heaven, said that He would do this for us.
Christ being our Savior was part of the plan from the very beginning. We learned this when we participated in the council in heaven. Rev 12:7-17 & refer you again to Job 38:1-7 & Jeremiah 1:5.
Scriptures in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants detail this in even greater detail. Why? Because these scriptures didn’t go through the compilation process that the Bible did with many pertinent doctrines being eliminated or ‘watered down’. There are many books that detail this issue with the Bible and how it was translated or mistranslated.
Isaiah 48:12 and Rev. 1:17 are both referring to Jesus Christ. Isaiah is not speaking about Heavenly Father.
I don’t know what you really mean when you say, “Are all these just interesting coincidences or evidences that Jesus is the one true God without beginning or end? Friend, I hope you will see that it is the second. Jesus Christ is the eternal and everlasting God.”
They all testify that Jesus is the Christ, our Savior and King. He is a God as is Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost. They all are the Godhead.
I’ll answer your questions about the verses in John when I answer Ted.
I hope this is clear and you are able to understand what I am saying. If not, I’m sure you will let me know.
If there are indeed three Gods, what should we do with the following verses?
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me." Ex. 20:2-3
"How great you are, O Sovereign Lord! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears." 2 Sam. 7:22
"Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." Isaiah 44:8
"4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Cor 8:4-6
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." Jas 2:19
I don't know Jim, what do you want to do with them. I tried to explain to you in my previous post what terminology I use so we could understand each other. I'm not sure that worked.
These references are all great. They are all true.
1st - Don't worship false Gods.
2nd - Great verse. No issue here.
3rd - Jesus is the Rock!
4th - Great explanation of what I have been trying to say to you. God , the Father, AND Jesus Christ, 2 separate beings.
5th - absolutely true. Christ is our mediator with the Father. See John 17
I'm not sure what else to say. You seem to be stuck on terminology and we can't move forward with any discussion until that is resolved. I've tried my best to explain it to you but apparently have failed.
All 3 members of the Godhead ARE Gods. They all have different functions but they ARE Gods.
John 3 is where Jesus teaches Nicodemus that all must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus teaches that he is the Only Begotten Son of God, sent to save mankind. Verse 5 is where Jesus answer Nicodemus saying, “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
Jesus is instructing that one must be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism is the gate by which all must pass to enter onto the strait and narrow path that leads back to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. We believe that all mankind must be baptized by one having the proper priesthood authority.
V18 is pretty straightforward in that those who choose not to believe in Jesus will be condemned. If you believe in someone, don’t you do what they ask you to do, especially if it is our Savior, Jesus Christ? Believing in Jesus is the first step. It shows that one has faith in Christ and when one has faith in someone they choose to follow that person. Christ told his Apostles to ‘come follow me’ and they did.
Ted, you state that it is hard for you to see a works salvation because the water was given to the woman at the well. I’m not sure how you are connecting those dots.
The Jews had “no dealings with the Samaritans” (John 4:9) and usually avoided Samaria when traveling. Yet Jesus deliberately went through Samaria. What does this reveal about him?
How did the Samaritan woman make it easier for Jesus to teach her? (See John 4:9, John 4:11–12, John 4:15, John 4:19, John 4:25.) She was humble, she desired to know more, and she believed his words.
How did the Samaritan woman change as Jesus spoke to her? How did Jesus help bring about this change? He taught her at her level of understanding, he testified of himself, he used the symbol of water powerfully, and he showed compassion.
Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he could give her “living water” (John 4:10). What do you think “living water” means? Aren’t they the doctrines of the gospel, the love of God, and the Atonement to name just a few? How can we obtain living water?
Ted said,
"I do believe it is by faith alone we are saved. If its faith plus keeping God's commands, is there such a thing as a death bed conversion?" No there is no such thing as a death bed conversion. This is the life and time to prepare to meet God. That's what this whole earth life experience is all about; to see if we will be obedient to all of the commandments of Christ.
"Or how about for someone is handicapped and can't move?" I'm not sure how this is relevant. Are you saying that people who are handicapped can't do anything? Sure they can. They can be obedient to the commandments of God. They can obey the 10 commandments, they can help the needy and poor, they can mourn with those who are mourning. I think you underestimate those who are handicapped!
"We believe repentance is importance because we should be broken over sin. God paid such a high price for sin, we should not take that lightly. We repent because we love God." I absolutely agree that we should be broken over sin, but what is sin to you if works are meaningless? How do you commit sin if you don't believe in works or deeds? Again, I ask the question, What are the commandments to anyone who believes that obedience to those commandments does them nothing? I'm really waiting for this answer from either of you.
"Last thing, Romans 11:6; But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Israel was chosen/foreordained according to the election of grace. This is not speaking about our individual works.
Ted, please read Romans 2 paying particular attention to verses 1-11 especially verse 6. My friend, to do the will of Jesus and to be obedient to His commandments takes action. You can not just be a hearer of the word; you must also be a doer of the word for hearing the word should cause you to act.
I ask you and Jim, what is the judgment of Christ? Are we going to be judged by Christ? If so, why? When we are judged by Christ, on what are we going to be judged? When someone goes before a judge here in America, on what are they judged? Their beliefs or their actions? We are always judged by our actions and it will so be at the judgment bar of Christ when that time comes.
Scott
Jim and Ted,
Please read the following talk on John 3. It does a much better job than I can do in explaining being born again.
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-183-22,00.html
Scott,
I will be judged. Thankfully, I will be judged according to the righteousness of Jesus, not my own righteousness (see Phil 3).
My point from the above passages was that there is ONLY ONE GOD. It is clear you missed the point because in the very next comment you wrote: "All 3 members of the Godhead ARE Gods. They all have different functions but they ARE Gods."
According to the Bible, there is only one God.
Ok. Let's go to the courtroom illustration. A criminal is standing before the judge... the judge says: "You are being charged with murder... the penalty is death. What do you have to say for yourself."
Murderer: "Yes, I did murder a man. But I've changed. I've done many good things, too. I've fed the poor, clothed the naked, adopted orphans, provided for widows... but yes, I did murder that man. However, I'm sure my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds."
What would a good judge say? If he was a good judge, I think he would say something like: "It doesn't matter how good you've become and how many good deeds you've done. You must pay for the crime you committed."
When we stand before God in the judgment, no one will stand by their own righteousness... no matter how much like Christ a person thinks he has become by obeying his teachings. God will say, "You've committed crimes and there must be payment for them."
Friend, you will never be good enough to earn salvation. Neither will I. We must trust in Christ's righteousness and not our own.
Jim,
On WHAT are you going to be judged? On WHAT?
The Bible does NOT teach what you are saying. I can't explain it any better than I have. I've given examples of where it talks about the Godhead as 3 distinct individuals. You just choose to ignore them and not to believe them. That's ok because we are free to choose for ourselves. However, I know otherwise.
Your courtroom illustration is missing the most vital part. Christ came in and said, I will pay the price for this man's sins if he will now be in debt to me and do what I ask of him.
This is what Christ did for us. We can't pay for our own sins, so Christ did it for us if we obey him. Not just believe in him, but OBEY him.
Jim, I don't think I can make it any clearer than I have. I've given you scriptural references that you choose to ignore and disbelieve.
My friend, we will be judged according to our works, not our beliefs. I'm sorry you misunderstand the Bible and its teachings. I don't know what your reference to Phil 3 is? Phillipians, Philemon?
I'm not sure I can say much more on this subject without constantly repeating myself.
I can give you greater clarity if you choose to read scriptures from The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.
D&C 130:22 reads, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
This scripture completely identifies the Godhead. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ personally appeared to him and others. It's true. D&C 76:22-24, "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the bright hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God."
Saved by grace after all we can do... 2 Nephi 25:23, "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
James 2: 24 (14-26).
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
There are many more scriptures that talk to this. I understand this topic is one that you firmly believe in grace only. But the Bible does NOT support your belief.
Jim, I'd be happy to continue to answer your questions, but I think you need to explain more in your answers to my questions. Since you have not answered them, I'm left to wonder what we are talking about.
Finally, you said, "When we stand before God in the judgment, no one will stand by their own righteousness... no matter how much like Christ a person thinks he has become by obeying his teachings. God will say, "You've committed crimes and there must be payment for them." The payment was done by Christ in Gethsemane. That is the Atonement! The price has been paid. Now, you need to DO what our Savior has commanded you to DO.
Jim,
I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind. I'm just trying to get you to open up to a different point of view with all of the Biblical references to our works. How does one justify ignoring scriptures that say you must do something?
I also engaged in this whole conversation to try to enlighten myself as to the teachings of other religions. I don't think you ever identified which church you go to, but I've enjoyed the exchange.
The good news is that Heavenly Father created a plan for us to be able to repent of our sins through our Savior, Jesus Christ. Why the need to repent if we aren't supposed to obey something. If we only have to believe then there is no need for repentance or a Savior.
Christ came to save us from our sins and overcome the chains of death through the resurrection. Without Him, we would be lost forever becasue we couldn't overcome them on our own.
That is the good news!
I'm sorry you don't see the Savior's life and the obstacles He overcame for us as good news. He said, "If ye love me keep my commandments." He told you to become perfect even as you Father in heaven is. (Matt 5:48) He showed you how to do it and if you obey His commandments, you will be doing exactly as He asked. If you don't, you won't.
Conversing over the internet is difficult because it limits the exchange.
Jim, if you are truly interested in learning more about Christ and His purpose on earth and your purpose on earth then call the missionaries to come over and let them discuss with you the things we have been discussing. If we lived closer, I'd love to do it myself.
I'm not ignoring, nor am I distorting scripture. I'm actually filling in the gaps for the plan of salvation.
If you don't want to have the missionaries come over, then get a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it. Read it with an open mind in search of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ is not the author of confusion. Christ established one church. With each church saying they believe in the Bible, why are there so many "Christian churches"? Why do they all preach different points of doctrine?
2 Timothy 4: 3-4 tells of our time and the churches that exist today. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
The true gospel of Jesus Christ is here on the earth. No one has to be left in the dark. There is only one way back to Christ not the thousand different ways you will find out in the world.
Faith without works is dead.
Good luck to you Jim in your search for truth and happiness.
Jim,
I don't know if you are still looking or not, but can you explain Revelation Chapter 20 for me? Particularly, the following verses"
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Scott ,
I've been reading your small debate about the nature of the Godhead and whether Mormons are Christians etc .
If Jesus Christ has redeemed us and it is him we are grateful to for this redemptive work whatever it means . How come Joseph Smith taught that women needed to be married to him for salvation ( exaltation) He put himself in between those girls and their Redeemer and claimed their eternal destiny depended on being married to him . This is not New testament teaching and non of the apostles taught anything like it .They spoke and taught of Jesus Christ and brought good news to people .They didn't manipulate young teens into any kind of marriage or sexual relationship with themselves like Joseph Smith did . This is really part of the issue and very distressing for many people .
Joseph Smith could have been a fraud and no different from other controversial religious leaders with distasteful sexual practices towards women in the name of God .
E J
Elder Joseph,
Interesting name you created for yourself.
I can't help someone who believes what you do. I've read your own posts and I don't agree with your posts or your comments about yourself. Based on those posts you are not an investigator of the LDS Church.
So good luck to you in your quest for whatever it is you are seeking.
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