Wednesday, January 24, 2007

Is Membership In The Kingdom Hard or Easy?

It is different; harder and easier. That may sound confusing but let me explain. Christ says “give me ALL. I don’t want so much of your time and so much of your money and so much of your work; I want YOU! I have not come to torment your ‘natural’ self, but to kill it. No half-measures are any good. I don’t want to cut off a branch here and a branch there. I want to have the whole tree down. Hand over the whole natural self. All the desires which you think innocent as well as the ones you think wicked- the whole outfit. I will give you a new self instead. In fact, I will give you Myself; my own will shall become yours.”


It is both harder and easier than what we are all trying to do. You have noticed that Christ sometimes describes His way as very hard, sometimes as very easy. He says, “Take up your Cross” – in other words, it is like going to be beaten to death in a concentration camp. Next He says, “my yoke is easy and my burden light.” He means both. And one can see why both are true.


For example, teachers will tell you that the laziest boy in the class is the one who works hardest in the end. They mean this. If you give two boys, say, a proposition in geometry to do, the one who is prepared to take trouble will try to understand it. The lazy boy will try to learn it by heart because, for the moment, that needs less effort. But six months later, when they are preparing for an exam; the lazy boy is doing hours and hours of miserable drudgery over things the other boy understands in a few minuets. Laziness means more work in the long run.


It is like that here. The hard thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self – all your wishes and precautions - to the Savior. But it is far easier than what we are all trying to do instead. For what we are trying to do is to remain what we call ‘ourselves’; to keep personal happiness as our great aim in life, and yet at the same time be ‘good’. We are trying to let our mind and heart go their own way, centered on money or pleasure or ambition, and hoping, in spite of this to behave honestly and chastely and humble. And that is exactly what Christ warned us we could not do- serve two masters. As He said, a thistle cannot produce figs. If I am a field that contains nothing but grass seed, I cannot produce wheat. Cutting the grass may keep it short, but I shall still produce grass and no wheat. If I want to produce wheat, the change must go deeper than the surface. It must be ploughed up and re-sown.


That is why the real problem of membership in this Church or Kingdom comes where we do not usually look for it. It comes the very moment you wake up each morning. All your wishes and hopes for the day rush at you like wild animals. And the first job each morning consists simply in shoving them all back; in listening to that other voice, taking that other point of view, letting that other larger, stronger, quieter life come flowing in.


We can only do it for moments at first. But from those moments the new sort of life will be spreading through our system because we are letting His spirit work at the right part of us. He never talked vague when he said, “Be perfect.” He meant it. He meant that we must go in for the full treatment. It is hard, but the sort of compromise we are all hankering after is harder. In fact, it is impossible. It is hard for an egg to turn into a bird, but it is much harder for it to learn to fly while remaining an egg. We are like eggs at present. And we cannot go on indefinitely being just an ordinary, decent egg. We must be hatched or go bad.


During our lives, we face this challenge of giving the Lord ‘all’ of us. This is the whole of Christ’s doctrine. There is nothing else. It is so easy to get muddled and think that the Church has a lot of different objects such as education, buildings, holding meetings, etc., but the Church exists for nothing else but to draw us, and others, into Christ, to make us little Christs. If the Church is not doing that, it is a waste of time. It is not even doubtful that we were really created for any other purpose. We have been sown the plan only in so far as it concerns ourselves and our purpose for living. We have been told and shown how we can be drawn into Christ; how we can become part of that beautiful reward He wants to offer us. And, those strange, exciting hints and feelings given us by His spirit that it is all true may at times seem like a dream from which we will awake. And when we do, the trials will be over: it will be morning.


Taken from a paradigm written by Barlow L. Packer and C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity


See.

Mosiah 3:19

Matt. 11:28-30

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dear Scott,

I recently discovered your blog and I like it thus far. Your article was informative and not preachy. Very well written.

I am an ex-Mormon. However, I have not come here to engage you and create amnosity. Do you encourage debates and questions or is this blog more directed for believing members?

I have several issues to talk about and would love to hear what members have to say about them. However, if this is not the purpose of your blog then I will not leave any further comments.

I regularly post on Samuel the Utahnite's blog at mormontruth.blogspot.com. Quite often, believing members come in there and really stir up the pot with insults and stereotypes. Again, I have not come here for that, nor will I respond kindly to anyone who does.

I am just seeking some good, honest discussion and debates and if you or any of your readers would care to do so, just let me know. If not, I will respectfully retire. Thank you.

T2TF said...

Ray,

My blog is open to whomever would like to contribute. Please feel free to ask any questions or leave comments as you see fit.

I'd be happy to engage with you on topics you have interest or questions.

Glad you stopped by.

Scott

Anonymous said...

Thank you very much Scott.

My story of leaving the church is a long one and perhaps over time I will be able to share all the aspects of it.

My concern at the moment is the way ex-Mormons are treated by Mormons. I am a regular poster at Samuel the Utahnite's blog as I mentioned. We often get visits by TBM's (True Believing Mormons) who are very rude and offensive. Many of them use every cuss word in the book and are not shy at all to insult us and accuse us of terrible things which they have no idea about.

I, like you, encourage debate and discussion. I have no problem with anyone's point of view and I feel that they should defend their beliefs. But why do so many TBM's have to punch below the belt? What I would like to discuss for now is why this is. I am not saying that they all do it. We have had some extremely insiteful and respectful Mormons visit us there and I have great respect for them.

Our most recent discussion was with a branch president who kept accusing us of being avid masturbaters. He was also not shy to drop the F bomb and call us a**holes.

I would think that those who engage us to defend the church would aspire to a level that represents Jesus. But so many of them are downright offensive and frankly, they are an embarrasment to the church.

My ultimate goal is to shorten that gap between Mormons and ex-Mormons. We are not evil people as many Mormons believe. Unfortunately there are many stereotypes that the church has placed on us and I would like to work to overcome those stereotypes.

From the little I have read of yours, Scott, you seem like a level headed, reasonable person. I am looking forward to our discussions and hoping we can separate the myths from the facts as they pertain to ex-Mormons and the reason(s) why we leave the church.

Comments anyone?

T2TF said...

Ray,

I haven't ever looked at the sight you are referring to. I'll have to take a peek to reference your concerns.

I actually haven't seen or heard of much of what you are saying is happening. I have a friend of 17 years and she doesn't attend church any longer. Yet, in all of our discussions about everything under the sun, she refuses to tell me and others, exactly why she won't go back to church. Craziest thing I've ever seen. She just flat out refuses. We aren't even trying to get her to go back, we just want to know why!

I've actually seen the reverse of what you are saying. I see ex-mormons who are relentless in their antagonistic attitude towards the church and devote their life to trying to bring down the church and its teachings.

I've conversed on a couple of sights like these trying to gain insight into their thinking but have come away with nothing.

They are acting like Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah; going around tearing down that which is good.

There are so many anti-Mormon sites from those who used to profess to be members. But can anyone say the same about other religions; namely that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of websites dedicated to bringing down their former church?

I just can't find them.

I'm not sure what your reasons are for disassociating with the church. And frankly, it's not any of my business. What one decides to do is their agency and choice.

Maybe you can shed light on why some choose to be so antagonistic towards the church?

Scott

Anonymous said...

I can certainly see your point. There are those who leave the church and openly fight it. There are those who leave the church and are quiet about it. On the other hand, there are some members who are very rude and condescending to ex-members and there are also members who are very kind and understanding about it.

I hope I didn't come across as saying that all members are rude and crude. I know for a fact that is not true.

Most likely, the reason your friend will not tell you why she left is because she does not want to be judged and misunderstood. It appears that she is just trying to avoid conflict. There might be more to it than that, but that's what it appears to be right off hand.

"Maybe you can shed light on why some choose to be so antagonistic towards the church?"

I can certainly try. First of all, let me clarify that there are many reasons why people leave. And "sin" is actually one of the fewest. I know that is not what the church teaches so you will just have to take my word for it.

In order to understand what I am about to say, you will need to imagine for a moment that, for whatever reason, you no longer believe the church is true.

When a person comes to the point where it is crystal clear that the church is not true, they leave because they are simply being honest with themselves.

With the discovery that the church is not true comes a realization that this organization has fed you lies ever since you were born. Some people are able to just forget about it and walk away. Others become enraged. They become enemies of the church because the church has purpously mislead them and taken thousands of hours of their time and thousands of dollars all based on fraud.

The logic is simple. If the church is false, then they are openly deceiving millions of people.

So, some ex-members fight against it in order to receive a sense of justice, and to let others know that they are being lied to.

Just like you feel that you have the responsibility to share the gospel, ex-members feel that they have the obligation to expose the churches lies. Does that make sense?

There is so much more to it than being possessed with the devil. That is another common stereotype. Does that help to clear things up?

Elder Joseph said...

Hi Scott ,

just read your article about being 100% devoted to Jesus Christ , To give ALL etc ..to be mini Jesus Christs .....

Are you really doing this ? Giving all of yourself , not just the church callings but every part of your time . Refusing to be entertained by the world and instead focus On Christ , his word etc without Hypocrisy or double standards ...

I hear this alot in church and those who amplify it most tend to be the ones who afterwards claim they are just human etc when caught out doing things they shouldn't . I know of one great example by the lousy creep !

This is what puts me off this kind of thing , the usual Hypocrisy .

Maybe you really are different and shining the light of Christ . If you are then God Bless you ..

E J

T2TF said...

Ray,

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate what you are saying and your explanations for me.

I think that Elder Joseph's comments on this post and another post of mine, 'Are Mormon's Christian?' is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He says on his blog that he is an investigator of the LDS church, but when you read more about him and what he actually posts, he isn't an investigator for truth. He is someone who is obviously in total disagreement with the teachings of the church and spends his time spreading his sarcastic opinions.

You are right, the logic is simple. I'm just not in a position to understand the venom that comes out from those who feel victimized.

I'm sure it is both ways. I'm sure you hear from many who say things like 'Johnny can't play with you because you aren't Mormon' or other comments like that.

Those things just blow me away because no where are there teachings like that. I know it is a cliche but the church is full of people with good intentions but are often short-sighted in their deeds. And this does offend many. However, I believe that one can only be offended if one is looking to be.

Do you think people in other churches feel they have been lied to? Do you see the same disdain for their former church when they decide to leave?

I guess I don't see people who leave the church want to discuss things rationally. It's a full court press and there's usually a lot of name calling to try to convince someone that what they are believing is wrong.

Ray, Let me ask you this. What does the church teach that is so wrong in someone's eyes who has left the church, that they just can't let me believe it?

I look forward to your response.

Elder Joseph,

If you actually read the post you will notice that no where in it do I ever claim that I'm doing it 100%, nor will I ever do so. I'm not Enoch.

Anonymous said...

"What does the church teach that is so wrong in someone's eyes who has left the church, that they just can't let me believe it?"

In MY opinion, if you are truly happy being a member and living and doing all that is expected, then I believe that you should have every right to do so. But there are many who are secretly miserable and feel overwhelmed by rules and commandments. To those people I/we offer support and knowledge that Mormonism is not the only way of life.

"Do you think people in other churches feel they have been lied to? Do you see the same disdain for their former church when they decide to leave?" I am no expert, but I would guess that there are some who do. All churches claim to be true, but Mormonism feeds it into the members constantly, to the point that it is so engrained in their minds that they would rather die than deny it. I honesly feel that if they would let up on "the only true church" propaganda, many people would be less bitter when they leave. The LDS church is extremely adamant that all the rules be strictly followed and the members give 100% obedience.

Ex-Members are angry to discover that 150% devotion to this religion is not necessary. There are other ways of life and we have discovered that the church has robbed us of our personality and our self esteem our entire lives.

Just think of the mind job the church does to people. First, they teach that to sin is wrong and the only way to be forgiven is to go through a rigorous repentance process. During this process, one is forbidden to take the sacrament. If a person is seen in sacrament meeting not taking the sacrament, everyone automatically knows that they committed some sin. Whether you can see it or not, this is a control tactic. It is used to keep members inline by publically punishing them. In many cases, in order to be completely forgiven, the offender has to stand up in sacrament meeting and confess to the entire congregation. So what is the result? A person sins but are too damn scared to talk to the bishop. They carry this pointless guilt around with them for years, hating themselves for being so weak and yet being too afraid to go to the bishop because everyone will know they committed a sin. This is the kind of dysfunctionality that Mormonism creates and exactly why so many Mormons have a unique outlook on life. That is why to be a Mormon is to live a lie. The only way to fit into the social order is to either be 110% submissive or just lie about it. Either way, it is not healthy. This is why people are so bitter when they leave.

T2TF said...

Ray,



Thanks for your responses. I really appreciate them and am trying to better understand where you are coming from with your thoughts and feelings. Based on your comments, I can see that you think there are too many commandments to obey. I think that everyone at some point in time feels overwhelmed by all of the ‘to do’s’ given to us by the Lord. I can certainly appreciate that point and understand it.



When I read your comment “The LDS church is extremely adamant that all the rules be strictly followed and the members give 100% obedience” I thought of a scripture in Matthew 11:28-30. This scripture reads, Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

This is an invitation from the Lord to come unto Him when we feel overwhelmed with things in life. This is for every person in the world, LDS Church member or not. This scripture is about giving service. I’m sure you have given service many times so you know that when we do give service we feel good about whom we are helping and usually forget about our own troubles.

I’m also reminded of the Lord's admonition to us that “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” It is the Lord who requires obedience of us and in the pre-existence we shouted for joy at the opportunity to show our willingness to obey in this life. It is true that none of us keeps all of the commandments. We all commit sin. However, Christ suffered for our sins on the condition that we obey him and his command to us is to keep the commandments. What better way can we show our love to our Savior than to do what He has asked of us?

You stated that "(you) honestly feel that if they would let up on "the only true church" propaganda, many people would be less bitter when they leave." How do you expect the church to do this? Do you really think that the church is going to do this? If you believe the First Vision then how why would the church deny this claim? In fact, it isn't a claim by the church at all. Joseph Smith's account states, "It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He (Jesus Christ( again forbade me to join with any of them;"

The Lord also says in D&C 1:29-30, "And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon. And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually— "

Ray, I'm not sure that the church can deny being the only true church since the Lord is the one who restored His church through Joseph Smith and declared that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His church. How does one who has received a testimony of this, deny it? I can't and won't.

There are other ways to live one's life if one so chooses. I don't think that you have the right to ask someone to deny what they believe just to pacify others who don't want to be obedient. Is that how it works in real life? I don't know of places like that, do you? You don't give any explanation or example of how your personality and your self-esteem have been robbed by being obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, being obedient to those laws and ordinances liberates us in many ways.

I don't agree that the church does a 'mind job' on its members. Everyone is free to believe and worship as they choose. Each of us is free to be as obedient as we choose. We just don't get to choose the consequences of our disobedience. That too, is the way of the world, right?

Christ teaches that sin is wrong. If you want to disagree with that, then you can. But don't blame the church for teaching that sin is wrong. As I said before, I don't know your personal circumstances of leaving the church. But I don't agree with your assessment of the repentance process. Yes it is true that some sins need to be confessed to our priesthood leaders. However, most sins that we commit do not. You call the repentance process a rigorous one. What do you think it was like for Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of all mankind? How do you think He felt going through that process? Do you think it was easy or hard? Do you think He paid for your sins and mine? We know that He poured drops of blood during this most agonizing atoning process for each one of us?

If Christ paid that penalty for us, can't we do what He wants us to in return? Yes, sometimes people are not allowed to partake of the sacrament as part of their repentance. However, when one thinks of the sacrament prayers and what we actually commit to do in them, maybe some people shouldn't partake of the sacrament. Basically, to try to save face, they are lying to the Lord that they are clean and worthy to be baptized when in fact they aren't. I understand that it may be difficult to keep up appearances just for the sake of it. But if one is really at church to worship our Savior, then doing what we have been asked to do is such a small sacrifice. Just because someone doesn't partake of the sacrament does NOT mean that someone is guilty of some grievous sin. I've not taken it myself when I feel I have has room for improvement the previous week. No one looked at me funny or talked behind my back.

You state, "In many cases, in order to be completely forgiven, the offender has to stand up in sacrament meeting and confess to the entire congregation." There is NO sin where it is required to do what you have indicated. Absolutely NONE. I have been in enough callings to see the whole process and that has never, ever been discussed because it is absolutely false. If you know of someone who did this, I'd love to know the ward where and when it occurred. It's these kinds of statements that I find frustrating because someone may actually read what you said and believe it.

Mormons do have a unique outlook on life. We know that the Lord has restored His church on the earth and that He has called prophets and apostles to lead the church, just like it says in the Bible. No other church has this. We know that we can be an eternal family. We also know what will happen when we die and are to be resurrected and the final judgment. We also know that obedience does matter in keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ. They aren't just a bunch of words written to be taken lightly or to be obeyed by what one feels comfortable doing. That's not the plan of happiness. Wickedness never was happiness.

We do have the fulness of the gospel which will lead one back to the presence of God and Jesus Christ. We do know that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have a body of flesh and bones. They are not three personages all rolled into one. We know that God and Jesus live today and that we can live with them again if we are obedient to the commandments. Christ said there are many mansions and he will go and prepare one for each of us. Just be obedient.

Ray, they are the commandments of Jesus Christ, not the church. You are asking for the entire church to deny its existence and to say that Jesus Christ is a liar. That will never happen.

Anonymous said...

Scott,

Thank you for your honest and detailed reply. I know some of the things I say are choppy and opinionated. I appologize for that and I will attempt to make better arguments in the future.

All of your arguments are based upon the assumption that Jesus is alive in heaven right now directing his church through Gordon B. Hinckley.

When I realized the church isn't true, I also realized that Christianity in general is false. If Christianity is false, then the LDS church is also false by default.

I can prove, using the Bible, that the claims of Christianity are false.

Claim: God is all knowing and all powerful and his word is perfect.

Answer: God's word is confusing. Deut teaches that parents should stone their rebelious children to death. That same book also contains the Ten Commandments, one of which is "Thou shalt not kill."

Claim: God is all righteous and can never sin.

Answer: Because of the Ten Commandments, we know that god said killing is a sin. But god has killed. (The great flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, fire from heaven that killed Baal's priests, Red Sea drowning the soldiers of Pharoah, etc.) The god of the Bible is a murderer. Therefore, he is a sinner.

Claim: Jesus died for our sins because he was perfect.

Answer: Jesus says he mimicks what he sees the father do. The father is a murderer and a sinner. Therefore, Jesus is a sinner. (Besides, Mormons believe that Jesus is Jehovah in the Old Testament, and Jehovah is responsible for many deaths). How can a sinner save us from our sins?

So hopefully you can see that the entire Christian claim is bogus, doens't make sense, contradicts itself, and it can be proven just by a logical examination of the Bible. If Christianity falls, Mormonism falls because it is based on the underlying asumption that Jesus is real and lives in heaven with god right this very moment. But Jesus isn't in heaven because Jesus is a myth.

If you don't believe it, do a little research and compare Jesus with any mythological hero and you will see that they all share similar characteristics. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you believe in a lie.

I was able to open my eyes, see the lie, and free myself from 1) the need to worship an imaginary god, 2) belief in superstitious nonsense, 3) fear and guilt from having offended said god, 4) fear of being judged and condemned to hell.

I know these words just burn your eyes and ears. They sound like pure blasphemy, but in all reality they are just logic and the ultimate truth. Jesus is no more real than Hercules; and god is no more real than Zeus.

Believe me, liberating myself from all these superstitions is pure freedom. I no longer live in fear and guilt. I now enjoy life! I now look at science and not say that it is an enemy of god, but a reliable source of truth. Fear of damnation is no way to live your life. Fear of offending Jesus is just ridiculous.

It's like me telling you that I am a real Jedi Knight. I have a lightsaber and I have the force. You know that's not true because Starwars is just a story... Christianity is no different.

T2TF said...

Ray,

I appreciate your response. However, you know that I don't agree with your logic and never will. That's ok because you and I both choose what we want to believe.

As I read your responses I was reminded of an interview between Alma and Korihor.

Before I add it, Ray, then please answer what is the purpose of life? Where did we come from? And where are we going? Is there right and wrong in your life? If so, what do you base that on?

Ray, believe it or not, but I'm free with the beliefs that I have. I'm liberated because I follow Jesus. I'm not in any bondage and don't feel as if I'm living my life in fear of damnation even though it is real.

Jesus showed us the way. If you want to deny all of the testimonies of those who have personally seen him and the miracles that He wrought, then that is up to you. I don't have to understand everything to know that it is true. Neither do you.

Ray, you can run, but you can't hide from our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Here's the interview that actually took place. Alma 30.

1 Behold, now it came to pass that after the people of Ammon were established in the land of Jershon, yea, and also after the Lamanites were driven out of the land, and their dead were buried by the people of the land—

2 Now their dead were not numbered because of the greatness of their numbers; neither were the dead of the Nephites numbered—but it came to pass after they had buried their dead, and also after the days of fasting, and mourning, and prayer, (and it was in the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) there began to be continual peace throughout all the land.

3 Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord; and they were strict in observing the ordinances of God, according to the law of Moses; for they were taught to keep the law of Moses until it should be fulfilled.

4 And thus the people did have no disturbance in all the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

5 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the seventeenth year of the reign of the judges, there was continual peace.

6 But it came to pass in the *latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if he robbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.

11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.

12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ. And after this manner did he preach, saying:

13 O ye that are bound down under a foolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can know of anything which is to come.

14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.

15 How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.

16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.

18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.

19 Now this man went over to the land of Jershon also, to preach these things among the people of Ammon, who were once the people of the Lamanites.

20 But behold they were more wise than many of the Nephites; for they took him, and bound him, and carried him before Ammon, who was a high priest over that people.

21 And it came to pass that he caused that he should be carried out of the land. And he came over into the land of Gideon, and began to preach unto them also; and here he did not have much success, for he was taken and bound and carried before the high priest, and also the chief judge over the land.

22 And it came to pass that the high priest said unto him: Why do ye go about perverting the ways of the Lord? Why do ye teach this people that there shall be no Christ, to interrupt their rejoicings? Why do ye speak against all the prophecies of the holy prophets?

23 Now the high priest’s name was Giddonah. And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.

24 Ye say that this people is a free people. Behold, I say they are in bondage. Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true.

25 Ye say that this people is a guilty and a fallen people, because of the transgression of a parent. Behold, I say that a child is not guilty because of its parents.

26 And ye also say that Christ shall come. But behold, I say that ye do not know that there shall be a Christ. And ye say also that he shall be slain for the sins of the world—

27 And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges.

28 Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God—a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be.

29 Now when the high priest and the chief judge saw the hardness of his heart, yea, when they saw that he would revile even against God, they would not make any reply to his words; but they caused that he should be bound; and they delivered him up into the hands of the officers, and sent him to the land of Zarahemla, that he might be brought before Alma, and the chief judge who was governor over all the land.

30 And it came to pass that when he was brought before Alma and the chief judge, he did go on in the same manner as he did in the land of Gideon; yea, he went on to blaspheme.

31 And he did rise up in great swelling words before Alma, and did revile against the priests and teachers, accusing them of leading away the people after the silly traditions of their fathers, for the sake of glutting on the labors of the people.

32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.

33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.

34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?

35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

36 And Korihor answered him, Yea.

37 And then Alma said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?

38 And he answered, Nay.

39 Now Alma said unto him: Will ye deny again that there is a God, and also deny the Christ? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a God, and also that Christ shall come.

40 And now what evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.

41 But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true?

42 Behold, I know that thou believest, but thou art possessed with a lying spirit, and ye have put off the Spirit of God that it may have no place in you; but the devil has power over you, and he doth carry you about, working devices that he may destroy the children of God.

43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

45 And yet do ye go about, leading away the hearts of this people, testifying unto them there is no God? And yet will ye deny against all these witnesses? And he said: Yea, I will deny, except ye shall show me a sign.

46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed.

47 But behold, it is better that thy soul should be lost than that thou shouldst be the means of bringing many souls down to destruction, by thy lying and by thy flattering words; therefore if thou shalt deny again, behold God shall smite thee, that thou shalt become dumb, that thou shalt never open thy mouth any more, that thou shalt not deceive this people any more.

48 Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God; and except ye show me a sign, I will not believe.

49 Now Alma said unto him: This will I give unto thee for a sign, that thou shalt be struck dumb, according to my words; and I say, that in the name of God, ye shall be struck dumb, that ye shall no more have utterance.

50 Now when Alma had said these words, Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma.

51 And now when the chief judge saw this, he put forth his hand and wrote unto Korihor, saying: Art thou convinced of the power of God? In whom did ye desire that Alma should show forth his sign? Would ye that he should afflict others, to show unto thee a sign? Behold, he has showed unto you a sign; and now will ye dispute more?

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God.

53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

54 Now when he had said this, he besought that Alma should pray unto God, that the curse might be taken from him.

55 But Alma said unto him: If this curse should be taken from thee thou wouldst again lead away the hearts of this people; therefore, it shall be unto thee even as the Lord will.

56 And it came to pass that the curse was not taken off of Korihor; but he was cast out, and went about from house to house begging for his food.

57 Now the knowledge of what had happened unto Korihor was immediately published throughout all the land; yea, the proclamation was sent forth by the chief judge to all the people in the land, declaring unto those who had believed in the words of Korihor that they must speedily repent, lest the same judgments would come unto them.

58 And it came to pass that they were all convinced of the wickedness of Korihor; therefore they were all converted again unto the Lord; and this put an end to the iniquity after the manner of Korihor. And Korihor did go about from house to house, begging food for his support.

59 And it came to pass that as he went forth among the people, yea, among a people who had separated themselves from the Nephites and called themselves Zoramites, being led by a man whose name was Zoram—and as he went forth amongst them, behold, he was run upon and trodden down, even until he was dead.

60 And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day, but doth speedily drag them down to hell.

T2TF said...

Ray,

I'm also interested in hearing about the person who was told they had to get up in church and tell everyone what they did in order to complete the repentance process.

Scott

Anonymous said...

Hi Scott, Sorry it's been a while since my last comment. I really appreciate you taking the time to continue talking with me.

"Before I add it, Ray, then please answer what is the purpose of life? Where did we come from? And where are we going? Is there right and wrong in your life? If so, what do you base that on?"

When I was Mormon, I clearly knew the answer to all those questions. Of course, they were the typical Mormon answers. Now, as an ex-member, I realize that it is okay to say, "I don't know". I am currently on a personal journey to find those answers for myself.

- As far as I can answer now, the purpose of life is to live.

For now I gotta go but I'll answer your other questions later

Anonymous said...

- I believe in an afterlife, but no one truly knows what lies beyond until he takes the journey himself. The Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which I am exploring the possibility of. They believe your dreams are clues of your former lives.

- To find the answer to the "right and wrong" question, I look to nature. God created nature so we should be able to find truth there. I do not see animals getting married or being worried about whether or not they are saved. All I see them doing is living their lives and re-populating. I have been criticized before for referring to animals in this way, but think about it and you will realize that they are far superior to us. They live the perfect law in the absense of law. Let me explain.

Jesus said the greatest commandment is love. And if you think about it, it is the only commandment. If I love someone, I will not steal from them; I will not dishonor them; I will not kill them. I will not sleep with their wife. Animals follow this law. They do not take more than they need; they do not kill for sport. In fact, the animal kingdom exists in perfect harmony and yet complete anarchy. If all humans would just follow the commandment to love, there would be no need for government, laws, rules, jails, courts, etc. So to me, the only sin is to not love.

"Ray, believe it or not, but I'm free with the beliefs that I have. I'm liberated because I follow Jesus. I'm not in any bondage and don't feel as if I'm living my life in fear of damnation even though it is real."

I respect all people's beliefs and I would never try to force you to quit believing. I feel that if you are truly happy with your belief, then why would I want to take it from you?

My question, though, is do you follow Jesus because you truly love him, or do you follow Jesus for fear of damnation, OR do you follow Jesus just for the promised reward? Answer this question honestly, not to me, but to yourself. When I finally answered it honestly, my answer was that I followed out of fear.

I came to the realization that there is no such thing as damnation. This is a fear tactic used to extort people of their will and money. The church asks for your complete and total obedience and you give it freely. If the devil was real, there would be evidence for it. If Jesus was a savior, there would be evidence for it.

Think about it. Jesus wants all people to come unto him and therefore his church which we will assume is the Mormon church. Why does Jesus not provide signs for his true church for us to see today? Why does Jesus give a sign sometimes but not other times? Notice how we aways hear stories of signs and great miracles but we never see them and yet are expected to take it all on faith? It is because these "signs" are what we exmo's call FPR's or Faith Promoting Rumors. They are made up or extremely exaggerated stories. If god would do great and miraculous miracles in the time of Joseph Smith, why is it considered so wrong to ask for a sign now? Why is a person who asks for a sign considered to be such a bad person?

I know exactly what you will say... "I have seen someone get healed after receiving a blessing." So what about people in other churches who heal after receiving similar blessings from their priests who do not hold the proper authority? I got news for you, a blessing makes no difference at all. There is no such thing as priesthood authority. If the person gets better, they would have gotten better anyway. If the person dies, they would died anyway. What is one truly miraculous event that you have witnessed with your own eyes? There is none; there might be a coinsidence here and there, but nothing that proves you have the true priesthood where everyone else does not.

Everything I am saying is just logic and common sense, but I know (since I used to be Mormon) that this type of thinking is highly discouraged. You are taught that I am deceived by the devil and that I am spreading his lies when, in fact, I am just using my brain and using common sense.

I am just calling the church on their bullshit and am asking for a miracle. Since they claim to be all powerful, it should be no problem, right? I mean, they publish and glorify every FPR they can, and you tell me that they are not trying to convice people of their truth with supposed miracles? Instead of publish a miracle in the Ensign, why don't they just move a mountain? Both are "signs" but one would prove their point completely! So how come they don't move mountains? It's because they don't have the power of god!!! We all know they would if they could.

I hope I've explained my point accurately. The chapter that you shared is a perfect example... of scaring people out of asking for a sign. Why do they discourage people asking for signs? Because they know that they really can't produce one!!! So I will offer you the same challenge that I offered a TBM the other night...

Show me a sign. If it so be that you strike me dumb, fry me with a bolt of electricity, cause my house to cave in on me... whatever it is, just do it. It's easy to read and write a story about someone getting cursed with a sign, but it's not so easy actually producing one. So if I get zapped in my bed tonight, then I will humbly admit (if I survive) that you were right and I was wrong.

I issued this challenge to a TBM a few days ago, and guess what? I'm still alive! No thunder bolts, no being striken dumb, nothing.

Don't fool yourself. The Mormon church shares signs every stinking chance they can, but they have never actually produced one. Isn't that a little odd? They claim to have all this power and yet NEVER produce a miracle. And then they go so far as to scare everyone out of asking for a sign, saying that they have no faith. So why then, aren't signs given to the faithful? Well, they are in the Ensign, but not in real life. It's all a lie man and while I respect your right to believe, I am simply showing you another explanation that makes far more sense and can save you 10%.

So, I admit, I have no faith and until I see an unmistakable sign from heaven, I never will.

I know I sound just like Korihor, but the difference is that is a story, where this is real life. If god strikes down all those who oppose him, why am I still alive? Why are the web masters and creators of anti-Mormon web sites still alive? God knows who they are; why doesn't he just eliminate them? You know why? BECAUSE IT'S ALL A LIE! God doesn't give a shit what religion you are in.

So my challenge literally stands. Dust off your feet, pray, and beg your god to curse me. But I am 1000% sure it will never happen because, once again, it is all a lie. You don't have the power of god and you have no way to prove that you do. I am completely over all that superstitious nonsense. Life happens and nothing else.

Hey, I know I have spoken some pretty strong words and I hope you are not offended. I was Mormon once so I understand how right now you have a bad feeling in your gut, which you are intrepreting to be the spirit of the devil. I might as well be the devil himself, but I assure you that all I did was open my mind and start seeing things for what they really are. That's all.

Ever since I denied Jesus and, god forbid, the Holy Ghost, I have continued to live a good life, curse free, get good grades in school, have a happy family, and genuinely feel more sure of myself than I ever have before. It's because I am no longer relying on a superstitious myth. That is true freedom. I follow the one great commandment and that is all I need.

Seriously, where is god? Where? Why does he help you find your car keys but ignores the starving children in Africa? Your god has his priorities extremely out of whack. And by the way, did god really help you find your keys, or did you just keep looking until you found them? Are you starting to see the amazing absense of any kind of heavenly intervetion? I'm pretty sure your keys didn't come floating up to you... you found them yourself. God didn't help you.

If the cake is brown, it is probably chocolate. If there is no cake, you can't eat it. You get my point.

About the need to confess in sacrament meeting, I have heard of that happening, but honestly do not remember who or where. I realize that I said it happens "in many cases" but when I re-read that after I had posted it, I realized that is not correct. So I apologize for making that statement (see, I can admit it when I'm wrong).

That's the beauty of freeing my mind. Mormons think they know everything. I have finally gotten over the illusion that I know everything and realized that it really is okay to say "I don't know" once in a while. It's okay to admit that I was wrong. Why? Because no one is perfect and I don't live with the false belief that the "spirit" is guiding every choice I make. What about "spirit" guided choices that turn into disaster? "It was meant to be because I had a lesson to learn." If the choice was a good one, then you will say, "See? The spirit really does guide me." But if it goes wrong, then there was some lesson that god wanted you to learn. Don't you see that there is no spirit and you guys have a convenient explanation why it works sometimes and why it doesn't sometimes. Quit fooling yourself. If it only works sometimes, then what the hell is the point of the spirit in the first place?

If you want to quote Book of Mormon passages, then quote the one where the prophet Nephi predicts who the murderer is and supplies all the evidence to prove him guilty. Hel 8:26 - 9:9. That is what a real prophet should do, so how come good old Hinckley doesn't do it? In fact, how come none of them do, or ever have? Instead of giving answers, how come all Hinckley can say is "I don't know. Just keep paying your tithing"? Coming from a supposed prophet, that is pretty pathetic, don't you think? What has the guy ever done to even remotely suggest that he is a prophet? Building temples doesn't count since anyone with billions of dollars could do that. Seriously, show me anything.

I don't need to hide from Jesus. I need to hide from all the psycho TBM's who would burn down my house just because I am exercising my right to religious freedom and free speech. Jesus knows where I am, so let him take his revenge. I defy Jesus and challenge him to blast me. It won't happen because Jesus has no power and neither do you.

Well, dude it's after 2 AM so I'd better shut up and get to bed. I hope you'll continue to chat with me as I am looking forward to your response to everything I have said today.

P.S. Thank you for letting me speak my mind without sensoring me or deleting my comments. Your pro-Mormon site is much more tolerant than most others.

T2TF said...

Ray,

I’m glad you feel comfortable to post what you are feeling. It’s good for me to see as well as I can’t understand what you are going through and have gone through. However, let’s keep the language clean. Thanks.

In reading your last post a few things are readily apparent to me about your relationship with the LDS Church. First off, I detect a strong dislike for the commandment of tithing. Don’t fool yourself with the thinking that the LDS Church is the only church that tithes. Many believe in the writings of Malachi where the Lord commands his followers to tithe.

I understand that you feel that you received a 10% income increase when you stopped paying tithing. I hope you are spending it well 

We do know a little bit about the afterlife. Just read D&C 138 as a reference for those who have passed on. It is a wonderful scripture and gives great comfort to many people about their ancestors.

I’m glad that you love nature as it was created by Jesus Christ under the direction of Jesus. I’m not sure what nature is telling you regarding truth. The example you give is animals following the commandment that they received to multiply and replenish the earth, just as Adam and Eve. They are not superior to us by any stretch of the imagination. They are here for our purposes. Many scriptures refer to this and it is easy to understand.

I find it interesting that you look to nature for truth while referencing God and Jesus Christ. So is one to assume that you still believe in both of them? Jesus did tell us to love one another and you are so right that if all mankind was to do that, we would live in a different world. I’m often saying the same thing about the 10 commandments. If everyone just lived 10 – TEN commandments, we would all be happy and live in peace and joy.

Do you believe in any of the other commandments that Jesus taught? Do you reject some of the teachings of Jesus? If so, how do you make the choice which ones you want to believe?

Ray, if you actually loved as Jesus loved you, you wouldn’t be making the statements that you are about your defiance towards Him. He loves you unconditionally. He loves you in spite of your feelings towards him. He loves you no matter what you do. His arms are always stretched outwards. It is up to us to open up ourselves to Him and let Him come in.

It seems you blame the LDS Church for a lot of obedience. However, I must correct you. It is the Lord who has commanded you to be obedient. You knew it before you came to this world and you know it now. That my friend is the whole purpose of this life, to see if we will be obedient to all of the commandments of the Lord. You can choose to be obedient or not. That has always been your choice and will be forever. However, you do not get to choose the consequences of your choices.

Your logic and common sense really don’t make sense. You are screaming for signs to ‘prove’ to you that everything is true. The scriptures teach us that signs follow believers. You demean those who have witnessed miracles in their lives as nothing more that circumstantial evidence. I have seen miracles myself. They really aren’t something that people run around and preach from the rooftop. Your comments and seeking of signs sound like Laman and Lemuel. I’m sure you remember all the signs that they witnessed but never became real believers. They closed their heart and started to try to outthink the Lord never understanding that the Lords ways are higher than ours and His thoughts higher than ours. We will never understand everything in this lifetime. Miracles happen every day to people all over the world. One just needs to be a believer.

I’m surprised that you make so many assertions about the LDS Church, most of which don’t have merit. The Church doesn’t claim to be all powerful; Mormons don’t think they know everything; signs are not shared every chance the Church gets. I do understand that people in your boat want to blame the Church for everything, including outlandish claims that aren’t true. Maybe those claims come from a general understanding of the gospel but they are false still the same. There are many in the Church who lack the basic understanding of the principles and ordinances of the gospel.

You also scream that President Hinckley has done nothing to claim to be a prophet. You wouldn’t make these statements if you understood the purpose of a prophet. I could give you many examples but since you deny the Holy Ghost doing so would be meaningless.

I’m not sure what turned your heart to stone but maybe time will heal it to the point you open it up again to the Spirit and Christ. It is us who needs to make the changes in life, not Christ and His church. We are the ones who sin and fall short of the grace of God. However, the very man you have openly defied will be the one to allow you back into His presence if you repent and do as He has commanded. If you choose not to then the day will come that you will be judged of Him whom you defy and will be cast out forever. The scriptures are stories and wonderful stories at that. But they are true stories. They actually happened. It’s not some fictional Disney fairytale you are speaking about. You just choose not to believe the scriptures.

No one has said it is easy all the time. I have numerous stories where things haven’t been easy for my family and me. But it is the gospel that has brought us through those times knowing what we are striving for.

You have the right to believe and say whatever you want. No one should deny you that. I’m not sure what you are referencing when you say that, but if someone is trying to shut you down then they are wrong for trying to do that. Ray, you have made some pretty strong comments in your post. And you are wrong, because none of them have offended me. I’ve dealt with much worse and actually feel sorry for those who are making these kinds of statements. If we actually understood the Atonement of Jesus Christ we would all make immediate changes in our life. Yes, this includes you and me.

So don’t go around blaming the church for your hatred. It is you that has changed. It is you that has rejected the teachings of Christ. And it will only be you who will make the necessary changes to eliminate that hate and allow yourself to move past it.

Anonymous said...

Hi Scott,

I was typing my reply and I goofed and all the stuff I was typing for an hour is gone. Kinda sucks. Do you want to take this to email to make it a little easier?

polomolok@yahoo.com

If you have posted your email address, I'll just go ahead and send you my reply there. Probably not tonight, maybe tomorrow.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

OK, your email isn't posted here, so would you mind sending me a message so I have it? Unless you don't want me to have it... either way just let me know. Thanks